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Jamie Oliver Interview
By Malcolm Jolley
Jamie Oliver is the hardest working man in food-show business. Just look at
his CV. Since he was discovered by TV director Patricia Llewellyn while working
at London's famous River Café in 1997 he's produced ten books, 11 TV shows and
done countless other projects, promotions and advertisements, live shows, and
whatever else. He has, of course, been handsomely rewarded for his productivity - or rather for some it. Since the early-2000's the 33 year old has increasingly
turned his attention to charitable work and food related causes, all of them
documented on television: Jamie's Kitchen chronicled his establishment of the
Fifteen Foundation, which staffed his first restaurant with disadvantaged kids,
Jamie's School Dinners chronicled his efforts to get good, wholesome food into
Britain's schools, Jamie's Fowl Dinners turned his attention to the appalling
conditions of industrially raised chickens, and most recently Jamie's Kitchen
Australia shows Oliver's Fifteen concept exported down under. (Could Fifteen
come to Canada? Maybe: read on.)
Oliver was in town last week to promote the Australian show, which is now being
aired on food Network Canada, and the companion book to his "gardening show",
Jamie At Home, which is being released across North America under the Harper
Collins imprint. Before I interviewed him, he made me lunch (well me, and three
other journalists, but I'd like to think he seared the steak on the beet salad
with cottage cheese with me, the only guy at the counter, in mind). Oliver
looked a little more weary than in TV - he'd been on a whirlwind tour of New
York and Toronto, mostly signing books for thousands of fans. The cooking style
was right out of his shows, and the food looked like a picture from one of his
books. He's the real deal. What you see is what you get. There is no TV persona,
not even an interview one: when he went aside to speak to his publicists and
handlers I couldn't discern any change.
Warning: Jamie Oliver is prone to strong language, especially when he's talking
about something he's passionate about. When he cares about the subject, his
language is as salty as a sailor's, or rather a cook's.
THE INTERVIEW
Gremolata: You changed my life.
Jamie Oliver: Really?
Gremolata: Yes. My then girlfriend, now wife, and I had your first book, which
got us to stuff herbs under the skins of roast chickens, which made us roast a
lot more chickens, which got us making stock from the carcasses. When you start
making your own stock, you sort of enter a whole new level of home cooking
because then your making risotto... Anyway, the end result was this website.
Jamie Oliver: All from one book? That's funny. I've doing a cooking show for the
past year in England and people could not fucking believe that they could do
better than the £13.99 meal deal at KFC.
Gremolata: This is the Ministry of Food?
Jamie Oliver: Yeah.
Gremolata: And it's in a town called Rotheringham?
Jamie Oliver: Rotherham.
Gremolata: Sorry, Rotherham. Didn't some local politicians get upset
because they thought your show was giving their town a bad name?
Jamie Oliver: The press picked out one retired politician who wasn't even in
power. He said I was the depicting the town as a broken town. I just said,
"Fuck-off, I don't give a shit." You always get some minister who don't like the
smell of shit in their own doorstep. I hate those people. I like the ones who
want to know what the problems are not pretend it's all fine.
But going back, what was so interesting was just showing [the people on the
show] how you can make a roast dinner with all the trimmings, with an organic,
free range chicken for £12.50. And then compare that to their fucking £13.99
bargain bucket KFC meal. It's a bit shocking.
Gremolata: And this was because there was no history of cooking in the family?
Jamie Oliver: Yeah. Rotherham is the most average town there is, it's just a
metaphor for the rest of the country. Most of the country have never been taught
to cook at home or at school, now.
Gremolata: It's that bad? I mean, it's not just a small group of disadvantaged
people?
Jamie Oliver: No. What's happened in England is we've got probably about a third
of the people who have never got it better. The supermarkets are stocked up, the
farmers markets are stocked up...
Gremolata: I've been going to Britain every year since the mid90s and to my eyes
there's been a food revolution. In the small town in Wales I visit, the butcher
now identifies the meat by farm.
Jamie Oliver: Yeah. They've never had it better. In every way possible. The
world's become a smaller place, so they're sourcing incredible products from
fucking Timbuktu, they're into their shit and their cooking ability is up and
there are better restaurants around. But, I'm kind of not really bothered about
that lot anymore. They're well on their way and they're having a great time.
It's really the 50% to 65% of people who never learned how to cook, because
their mums and dads had to work, or whatever, that interest me. What's ironic is
that in a country that has so much more to offer than it used to, if you're in
some places or only buy your food in some places, you're worse off than you were
before. So, it's really fucking polarised.
But you know what? The ability to sit down and enjoy a meal, to have something
bloody tasty with your friends and family has no class. It shouldn't be about
rich or middle class or working class. If you flip through Italian or French
cookbooks, it's the cucina povera, the poor people's cooking that's always the
most creative and exciting. Even since the recession in England more people are
buying root veg and shins of beef and shanks of lamb, shit like that. But also,
at the same time, my restaurants have never been busier. So, there are really
two worlds.
Gremolata: You have been advocate for decent food for years. Have you learned
anything? What I mean is, are you better at it?
Jamie Oliver: Oh God, yeah. I've learned that when you do this sort of stuff,
you can't please everyone. And everyone's got an opinion. So you have to be
quite single minded, you really have to care. But also make sure you get
balanced opinions - really balanced. You know I did my show on [the mistreatment
of battery-raised] chickens, Jamie's Fowl Dinner, which will be coming out later
in Canada, and I really wanted to organic chicken, or at least free run chicken.
But what we found was a new minimum standard that was intensive, but was still
humane and green. That's what's really relevant to most people. If you have
access to money, or your a clever cook and spend a little more here, and save a
bit more there, then you can buy free range organic.
The biggest thing that I'm happy about the past seven years is the fact that
small amounts of really good information could get across and change lives,
change the health and have a domino effect and change the history of your
family. You know, if you're a parent and by the time your kid's 16 you can show
them how to make a ragu, or a stew, or a soup or a roast, or the mechanics of
how to make a pile of salad taste good, that's the Holy Grail. Because they'll
teach their kids, and there's that whole thing.
You have kids? You must have pinched yourself and said, "Fuck, I sound like my
dad."
Gremolata: [Laughs.] Sure. Yeah, absolutely.
Jamie Oliver: We all do it. But it's getting to that passing on of knowledge
that's so important. I suppose what I'm saying to you is that's the change you
want.
Gremolata: But I sometimes worry I live in a bit of a foodie bubble.
Jamie Oliver: That's the question: is it just, like, a fucking middle class food
club? Or is what we're doing going to change the finances, and the health, and
the lifestyle, and the social values of a household? Fucking yes! I've seen it.
I've seen it first hand across multiple families. From people on benefits to 86
year old retired people. Three well made meals can change a person's life. And
quick: in a matter of one or two weeks.
In some respects what we do - what I do - on television or the internet can ever
only be so good because skin on skin is the time when you hook people. That's
when you amplify the experience, when you get a person to look at fresh meat, or
that piece of fresh fish. That's when they get the confidence to actually go and
buy it and put it in that hot pan, and serve it and squeeze a bit of lemon on it
and then sit down enjoy it. People aren't buying that stuff because they're
scared. It's not the money, you know. The reason fast food and that are so
appealing is because they don't waste anything.
Gremolata: So that's why you're not on a beach right now. I mean, you could be.
Jamie Oliver: Let's just say I didn't have a summer holiday this year. Maybe
next year.
Gremolata: What about another travelogue? Jamie's Italy was fun.
Jamie Oliver: We're actually doing some stuff around America at the moment,
which is kind of interesting .
Gremolata: Will you come up to Canada?
Jamie Oliver: I don't think we're going to have a chance. The problem is it's
such a big place, isn't it? I mean, where do you start and where do you stop?
But I'd like to do Canada. Maybe next year. Basically, what the story is, what
I'd like to do - if I'm allowed - is do some really great cooking shows around
Canada, around America, around India, around Asia. Or Germany, where there's
some interesting things going on. With every country, once you scratch the
surface, there's gold. Do know what I mean? It's just about getting involved,
really. All in due course.
Gremolata: One last question: I overheard you say you might have a Canadian
partner for a Fifteen restaurant in Canada. The ones that train disadvantaged
kids without any other options. Is that right? Are you coming here?
Jamie Oliver: Well, what we're trying to do at the moment is find the money from
some government organisation that will allow us to set it up and run it. When we
did our last project in England, in Cornwall, the local government paid for
Fifteen and then we paid them back in three years. So it's easy money, they get
it back - it's safe. 80% of the produce we use is from within 20 miles of the
restaurant, all the kids are trained locally. That's the culture of Fifteen: in
Amsterdam it's all things Dutch, in Cornwall it's all things Cornish, in London
it's all from that part of mid-England. My friend Derek [Dammann] said he would
help us find a chef and all the right people from the grassroots here in Canada.
And I think it will probably be here in Toronto, for the first one. I'd love to
do it for September 2010. I just have to find the government money.
We'll see. Sometimes when you lot talk about it, someone pops their head up.
Learn more about Jamie Oliver at jamieoliver.com.
Click here to save up to 30% when you buy Jamie At Home at Amazon.ca.
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